Mātauranga Session 4: Māori in Creative Tech
It was an absolute honour to be joined by Vincent Egan of Māui Studios and Hori Mataki of Ariki Creative to have a kōrero about being Māori in creative tech. Wow! They had some amazing gems to share with us – ngā mihi nui ki a kōrua!
We forgot to mention in the kōrero – Hori and his team designed our tohu for Te Hapori Matihiko! Watch the video or read the notes below:
Pātai 1: Who you are, where you’re from, your Iwi, where you’ve worked and where you’re working now.
Hori Mataki: Tēnā koutou katoa. Ko Hori Mataki toku ingoa, ko te Whānau-a-Apanui, Ngāti Porou tōku iwi. I’m born and raised in Christchurch, and am the Kaihautu of Ariki Creative alongside my wife Anna. We started in 2007, so coming up to 17 years in mahi, we have grown to a team of 16 all based in Ōtautahi.
Vincent Egan: Tēnā koutou, Ko Vincent Egan tōku ingoa and I’m representing an organisation called Māui Studios. We are a production studio based in Ōtautahi and we are grounded in mātauranga Māori and tipuna values. We do all sorts of digital content focusing on three main pou. Those three pou are visual design: such as branding, Illustration, graphics, novel, print out comms. Motion design: such as filming and animation. Then there is immersive design: which is some of the more interesting stuff such as 3D augmented reality, virtual reality, as well as designing virtual marae spaces. I started the company alongside two of my bros straight out of uni in 2014. We’ve gone from two to 20 and creating employment opportunities / Māori internships for young Māori and just loving kaupapa Māori outcomes. Our base comes from whanau ora projects and that’s where we linked up with Hori and other pākihi. So it’s been a really awesome journey and it’s a pleasure to be able to have a kōrero to cover some interesting topics in that creative, Māori and technology space, which is a really interesting divergence of things. So it’s a pleasure to be here, mauri ora!
Pātai 2: Tell us about how or why you got into this industry?
Hori Mataki: From a young age, I just loved to draw. At school my maths books and science books were all full of drawings and illustrations. I was passionate as a kid about storytelling through comic books, cartoons and animation. I was into transformers and X Men, but also, I loved gaming. My older brother attended a community design course when I was 13 years old, and he brought home design software onto the computers back in 1998. We were early adopters into technology, we had dial-up internet, and I saw how proud my family was of my older brother pursuing a career in this thing called graphic design. So at 13 I started to head in the direction of what my brother was doing. Because he had the gear at home, we had photoshop, we had early animation software, which was shockwave, and macromedia, my brothers and I used to play around with the software for hours. And then someone said you can get paid to do this, that’s when I started thinking like how do I get a job in that space? I attended the School of Art and Design in Christchurch, I studied for 3 years towards a degree in graphic design and in my last year of studying, there was a professional practice element, looking at what you want to do once you graduate, where you’re going to take your degree or your diploma into the real world. I had a lot of role models in the rap music industry who are all entrepreneurial. So I took a leaf out of their notebooks about how to start a business based on your own creative outcomes, theirs was music and mine was design, art & animation. So that’s how I got my foot in the door. My first job was working for Ngāi Tahu, on some of the cultural design and I just haven’t really stopped.
“From a young age, I just loved to draw. At school my maths books and science books were all full of drawings and illustrations. I was passionate as a kid about storytelling through comic books, cartoons and animation. I was into transformers and X Men, but also, I loved gaming”
“I saw how proud my family was of my older brother pursuing a career in this thing called graphic design. So at 13 I started to head in the direction of what my brother was doing”
“I had a lot of role models in the rap music industry who are all entrepreneurial. So I took a leaf out of their notebooks about how to start a business based on your own creative outcomes, theirs was music and mine was design, art & animation”
Pātai 3: What are some of the challenges you’ve faced as Māori working in creative tech?
Vincent Egan: There is the cash flow element, we are always trying to find real projects to keep the ship humming along. But also I think a real key difficulty we have had, is being able to find the right kind of skilled people, that have the basis and grounding of mātauranga Māori, tikanga Māori or Māori worldviews & language elements. My experience and understanding when it comes to employing Māori people, is that we’re quite a premium people, we understand our worth, we understand how our values can really add value to a certain kaupapa. Being able to find really skilled Māori people and being able to maintain employment and keep an environment that is really conducive to their development and interests, it’s quite difficult to find enough skilled Māori people. We always keep an eye out and we’re always checking what’s happening within the space. I suppose this highlights an education component, like having more internships and degrees available.
“I think a real key difficulty we have had, is being able to find the right kind of skilled people, that have the basis and grounding of mātauranga Māori, tikanga Māori or Māori worldviews & language elements”
“My experience and understanding when it comes to employing Māori people, is that we’re quite a premium people, we understand our worth, we understand how our values can really add value to a certain kaupapa”
Hori Mataki: Some of the challenges as Māori working in this space is understanding processes, especially when we are working with mātauranga Māori, tikanga Māori, reo Māori, as it is intrinsic for us to have a solid connection to these spaces. I think of it in terms of the western world, they call it intellectual property, for us we call it mātauranga Māori, they can own it and sell it, but for us, it’s not something that we commodify as easily so that’s something that can be challenging. Trying to have our people involved along the journey, sometimes isn’t the reality for peoples deadlines and budgets, and so trying to justify how we want to do things can be challenging. We are fitting into their systems, and moulds that are already pre-existing, mandated, and procured, they may not have factored in kaumatua fees and hui/ wānanga fees, we are trying to take te ao Māori and fit it into te ao Pākeha systems
“In the Western world, they call it intellectual property, for us we call it mātauranga Māori, they can own it and sell it, but for us, it’s not something that we commodify as easily so that’s something that can be challenging”
“We are fitting into their systems, and moulds that are already pre-existing, mandated, and procured, they may not have factored in kaumatua fees and hui/ wānanga fees, we are trying to take te ao Māori and fit it into te ao pākeha systems”
Pātai 4: Being Māori, what is different about what you bring to this sector? What’s our special sauce, what’s our x-factor?
Hori Mataki: Being Māori is a special sauce, it’s something that derives organically from Aotearoa, it’s something that has intergenerational intent, that comes from our tupuna. We kind of exist on the multiverse, we don’t just exist today, we exist in the past and also in the future as a people and as a community. To me that’s a special source, not everyone can think like that. We also have the special ability to adapt, to go through a colonisation process and we have been able to take parts that work for us, and part of this is being able to recognise what is important to Māori, looking back at our mātauranga systems, and seeing how do we apply that to today’s context and keep safe.
“Being Māori is a special sauce, it’s something that derives organically from Aotearoa, it’s something that has intergenerational intent, that comes from our tupuna”
“We kind of exist on the multiverse, we don’t just exist today, we exist in the past and also in the future.”
Vincent Egan: It’s building upon the levels of genius that are in our genetics, there is a uniqueness to our culture that is definitely recognised from all around the world. To understand what it means to be a New Zealander, is to understand the Māori way. The uniqueness in our approaches to storytelling, our adaptability, our survivability, it’s something that is recognised especially by other indigenous cultures. You see indigenous cultures in some instances looking up to what is happening with Māori, like language revitalisation, and cultural revitalisation, these are some of the things that have been coming up in some of the kaupapa that we have been attending, one example of this is Te Aratini, which is that world expo that was hosted in dubai at the end of 2022. It was an expo around indigenous cultures’ knowledge sharing, and it echoed across the world. Even though there has been conflict amongst iwi and government, it’s how we have been able to survive and come out on the other end in sort of a favourable way. I dial it down to how we have been raised, and all the values that were instilled in us from our nanny’s, our aunts and uncles, those values are instilled in us.
“To understand what it means to be a New Zealander, is to understand the Māori way”
“The uniqueness in our approaches to storytelling, our adaptability, our survivability, it’s something that is recognised especially by other indigenous cultures”
Pātai 5: What’s some advice you can give to other Māori – to help them navigate these challenges?
Hori Mataki: If I was to speak to young people directly, there’s a lot of pressure on them, so if you have an ability to teach these kids not to listen to negative comments, or understand that, those comments are just a part of this now. If you understand who you are, listen to those that really care about you, listen to your inner authentic self, and truly believe and back your authentic self. There is a lot of pressure these days to become what you might see flashing on the internet, that you might forget about listening to that inner voice, or even your kaumatua as they are not really tainted by what’s happening in this generation, they just love you for you. Just being authentic, because there was a lot of pressure when I first started to put the suits on, to talk in a certain way in certain rooms to be what they have deemed as a business person, and I just said no, it’s not really me, so I just won’t even try. So today I can just fully be myself and if people want to work with me then they can. So for young people just be yourself and just go where people will appreciate you for being you.
“If you understand who you are, listen to those that really care about you, listen to your inner authentic self, and truly believe and back your authentic self.”
“Just being authentic, because there was a lot of pressure when I first started to put the suits on, to talk in a certain way in certain rooms to be what they have deemed as a business person, and I just said no, it’s not really me, so I just won’t even try”
“So for young people just be yourself and just go where people will appreciate you for being you”
Vincent Egan: It goes back to those human elements, we are talking about the dawn of AI and how its coming in and disrupting our working lives. One thing that it can’t really disrupt is the human element, it’s something that we’ve learnt as individuals, the tuakana teina relationship is always gonna hold true. So that human connection, spending time with one another, it’s learning from other individuals regardless of their age, and focusing on the content of their character, the content of the things they have to say and being open and willing to absorb information from them. The ultimate tried and true way is spending time with other people, exactly what we are doing today. Not always absorbing all our information from tech space, actually switching off from our devices, and going and seeing what really matters. Also when it comes to the tech space, being able to lower as many barriers as possible, so having curated spaces, where we can have information that is actually good for us. Like a forum where like minded individuals can share, and knowledge is flowing freely. One of those things that has been learnt, is finding those people that we love and trust and being able to have open conversations about the nitty gritty of what’s happening with our business, being forthcoming about sharing information that previously feels like it should be confidential, being in the right circles, vetting those people before they come into your space, knowing that the information that is being shared is shared with love.
“So that human connection, spending time with one another, it’s learning from other individuals regardless of their age, and focusing on the content of their character, the content of the things they have to say and being open and willing to absorb information from them.”
“Not always absorbing all our information from tech space, actually switching off from our devices, and going and seeing what really matters”
“ finding those people that we love and trust and being able to have open conversations about the nitty gritty of what’s happening with our business, being forthcoming about sharing information that previously feels like it should be confidential, being in the right circles, vetting those people before they come into your space, knowing that the information that is being shared is shared with love”
Pātai 6: Can you give us an example of a piece of mahi that you’re most proud of?
Hori Mataki: We do a lot of mahi, sometimes the bigger companies you feel proud to work with, and then there’s someone that might not have a lot of putea, but you’re proud to do the work because of who they are. I remember when I first started there was a whanau that had a mate in their family, and they asked me to do the booklet for the tangihanga, but they had no putea, so I still think of that as one of my proudest jobs, because they looked to me to provide a service to honour their family member. There is that type of mahi, that is good for the wairua and the soul. And then there’s the big company stuff, this year we were able to work with Google, that’s pretty mean, as a young boy being told off for drawing in class, to now drawing all over the Google logo, there’s a satisfaction as that little kid who got told off all the time.
“There is that type of mahi, that is good for the wairua and the soul. And then there’s the big company stuff”
“this year we were able to work with Google, that’s pretty mean, as a young boy being told off for drawing in class, to now drawing all over the Google logo, there’s a satisfaction as that little kid who got told off all the time.”
Vincent Egan: Absolutely bro, one that’s been popping off in LinkedIN and generating attention is the virtual marae space. Having a browser based platform where we can host mātauranga Māori in an interactive and 3D way. Working with the right people to approach this kaupapa safely has been a really enlightening experience. Essentially it is a virtual marae space that’s based on our aspirations of if Te pa tūwatawata ā māui studios was to have our own marae, what that would look like, how that would function, and being able to co-create. Working through details that are involved in a normal marae, being able to learn about this space. It’s never something to replace the physical space, it’s to provide more comfort for those that are still learning. It’s a really rewarding experience just learning so much about marae tikanga. It’s a way to digitise some of these sacred spaces to be able to preserve them. I know it might be a touchy subject but there are some kaumatua that are willing and able to have a digital composite of them, and being represented in spaces. We have been able to open up these possibilities, as this aligns all my interests around business, technology and what it means to be Māori.
Pātai 7: from member: What do you see as the opportunities/risks for Māori in this tech space with the introduction of AI and how big that will be for how we operate as society?
Hori Mataki: I watched a video the other day about how open AI and chat is being introduced into operating systems now with the new windows update, which means you can just chat into your PC what you want it to do and it will actually do it. Sometimes when we look at tech to come at it with a bit of caution, the power of these technologies are massive. I think there is an opportunity for Māori to own our own datasets, because at the moment it is all run by big companies which is another form of colonisation. I think we don’t have enough voices in the chat to go against the data that’s happening out there.
I think there is an opportunity for Māori to own our own datasets, because at the moment it is all run by big companies which is another form of colonisation. I think we don’t have enough voices in the chat to go against the data that’s happening out there.
Vincent Egan: I think there is still a bit of a timeline to where we are up to that space in terms of capability to where some of these big tech companies are at. It’s striking the balance around being able to leverage these technologies as much as we can. E.g. Chat GPT takes on these cognitive labour tasks like data entry, so it’s trying to leverage them to make our workflow be efficient, and in the meantime trying to understand them so that we can build them ourselves. But it’s tricky because we don’t have the capability yet to start having our own version of those technologies if we aren’t on the leading edge across the planet. My whakaaro is around, being protective of our cultural values and things that make us unique but also being able to use them in places that make sense. My concern is that it will be easy for us to be left behind, unless we are using it in as many places as it makes sense to.
“My whakaaro is around, being protective of our cultural values and things that make us unique but also being able to use them in places that make sense. My concern is that it will be easy for us to be left behind, unless we are using it in as many places as it makes sense to.”
Pātai 8: from member: Have you ever said no to a client (for values-based reasons)? If so, what advice would you have for others based on your learnings through/those experience(s)?
Hori Mataki: We rarely say no to be honest, but at the same time we appeal to a specific kind of audience. We appeal to those that understand we are a kaupapa Māori creative agency, at times we deviate them onto others that can get them up to speed. So we have a minimum requirement to engage with us, like having a cultural advisor as a bare minimum for non-Māori organisations. We ask do you have somebody that’s helping to advise you? Are you Māori owned or part Māori owned? And if it is not either of those, then the next question is why do you want Māori designs / mātauranga Māori as part of your kaupapa? They might have an answer like we live beside a kowhai tree and we want that tree to represent the design of our business. Our next thing is well, what do you do for the kowhai tree and your community, or how do you take it to another level? And if they tick no on everything, then we direct them on, It’s easier to say no, where the values are not aligned with the values that we have.
Vincent Egan: We say no to organisations all the time, because we get quite a mix, what we often do, for those that are fresh to Māori culture, we try to facilitate that and create opportunities for some of our cultural advisors to step in and help them with those guidelines. Understanding what their values are and whether they align with our values. My advice for pakihi is to be clear about what their values are, understand who they are and what communities they represent and who’s watching them. Especially in our early days, where you’re taking jobs left right and centre. But there are those pivotal moments where you realise the decisions we are making on this particular project, they have a certain alignment , and what does that actually mean down the track and then what are we encouraging those people that are watching us to do. We definitely profile pakihi as well, we ask them questions too. So sometimes we just flat out say no, and let them know that things don’t align.
Pātai 9: from member: When you hire people (non intern) into your team’s, are there any processes/considerations that give opportunities to Māori who have the ability to learn and become a team member? Or is it a time resource issue?
Hori Mataki: It depends, we had opportunities through different funding avenues during Covid to bring on young people as interns, we said yeah we can do that and we still have those people on staff with us. We might not have had the work at the time, but then we found the work to match the requirement. I agree with Vinny, it is difficult to find the right staff, in the right space. So a lot of the work we were getting, was toi Māori, Māori art and design integrated into brands, so that was the first place we sort talent, so not all young people were proficient in the digital side, and then if we needed some writing done, we would look for Māori writers to bring them on board, just finding those gaps that we needed. Sometimes being Māori isn’t always what you need for the job too. So we have a developer based in India, she’s been with us for 7 years now, but her skill set enhances what our understanding is within this space, she’s extremely talented, but that’s the way we operate, that finding staff doesn’t necessarily mean they have to be Māori but we can complement each other.
Vincent Egan: Yes, commenting on certain knowledge gaps in certain areas, it speaks to the tuakana teina relationship, so being able to pull in people that are globally knowledge savvy and pair them with some of our young Māori artists or developers is something that we think is really important. That way we can bridge the gap between where we currently are at, what the marketplace is up to, and bringing them up to speed with certain projects. Because there is often a lot of training involved, let’s say someone comes straight out of Toi Raukura, its being able to pair them up with a senior designer and teach them client engagement and being able to digitise those things in an efficient way. Another approach is getting financial support from say TPK cadetship, that’s an awesome way to elevate some of our staff members, as TPK will co-pay for that development. It makes it a lot easier, especially where there are knowledge gaps, some of the industry projects are quick turn around, it’s not always the most appropriate to put young artists on projects, along with all the pressures that come with the projects and expect them to deliver something mean. It’s just considering all the financial reality around developing staff members. We often go through word of mouth to find these people, and it’s also creating an ecosystem with their whanau so it’s looking at those relationships and how they are all interconnected.
“it speaks to the tuakana-teina relationship, so being able to pull in people that are globally knowledge savvy and pair them with some of our young Māori artists or developers is something that we think is really important”
