Wāhine Māori in Digital and Tech
For our second Mātauranga Session, we were lucky too speak with two mīharo leaders who are paving the way in digital and tech – Robyn Kamira of Paua Interface Ltd and Amber Taylor of Ara Journeys. And auē! The mātauranga in this session! We’ve written notes for you e te iwi, or you can watch along.
Pātai 1: Who you are, where you’re from, your Iwi, where you’ve worked and where you’re working now.
Amber Taylor: I am the Co-Founder and CEO of a digital tech company called Ara Journeys but prior to that, I worked at ATU University for about 18 years in commercialisation of research innovation, so that’s where I had my first taste of emerging technologies, working with a professors in that space, who were developing and creating a broad range of tech; including things like drones that were scanning Antarctica, through to the latest and greatest sin AR and VR. It was my experience there that led me into the tech space with Ara Journeys and what we do in building the digital platforms that we build out. The other roles I’m in include being the National Digital Forum Ambassador for Auckland and that’s the MB that sits under the Ministry of Culture and Heritage and the other pōtae I wear is as a business mentor. For 3-years now I have been mentoring other CEOs and Founders, not only in the tech space but also in the broader industries as well.
“For 3-years now I have been mentoring other CEOs and Founders, not only in the tech space but also in the broader industries as well”
Robyn Kamira: I’ve only ever worked for one company, being my own – Paua Interface Ltd. I finished my Comsci/Māori Degree at Waikato University and I was there at a fortunate time when people of high calibre were also there and you don’t know when you’re in places like that, just how much impact those kinds of people have on you. I finished my degree and I went straight into business because I was hapū with my second baby, and showing, and I thought that no one was going to hire me so I decided to hire myself; so I started Paua Interface Ltd. and that’s where I’ve worked ever since. I’ve also founded a second company called Incredible Skies, which is a drone RND Tech company. It started not long before COVID19 and it has more of a social purpose rather than a commercial purpose. We managed in between lock-downs to train our first 10 Māori to be certified drone pilots and I hope to pick that up again however it was highly reliant on funding and more of my time. I’ve been a judge of the NZ High Tech Awards and I’ve met finalists who’ve done some amazing things with their tech companies. I’ve recently resigned off the board of our Industry Organization IT Professionals. I also contract, so I work with all sorts of organisations but mostly within the Māori, EGO and government sector and at the moment, I’m working with Te Aka Whaiora – the Māori Health Authority – to help set up their data and digital function and working with some Māori health providers around their data and governance.
Pātai 2: What excites you the most about working in digital and tech space, particularly as wāhine Māori?
Amber Taylor: This is going to sound really corny but for me, it’s the possibilities of operating something better for the world. In the mahi that we do, a lot of it focuses on enabling rangatahi to become content creators rather than content consumers. So, when we’re looking at building our digital platforms and the AR/VR games that we’re building, we’re always thinking what are the possibilities in the future and how do we get people engaging with the environment, which sounds like a contradiction, but these games are actually designed to get people outside and in the environment. The possibilities are endless in tech.
“In the mahi that we do, a lot of it focuses on enabling rangatahi to become content creators rather than content consumers”
Robyn Kamira: Māori companies are usually very purpose led and are focused on what is good for people, communities and planet and I’m no different. We did some work on a recent report which absolutely confirmed this for me, as for the several Māori companies involved, that was front and foremost. The years of being in this sector for 20+ years and watching tech grow and expand in so many ways is both exciting and scary; the kind of challenges and opportunities it brings up excites me. On a personal level, I’m naturally curious and I like to see how things work and since I was young, I figured I am naturally attuned to tech and the way it works and the logic behind. I’m also like a bull to a red rag! If someone tells me I can’t do something, I’m off in that direction; it fulfils and excites me. The tech sector provides you with that kind of challenge, always.
“Māori companies are usually very purpose led and are focused on what is good for people, communities and planet”
“I’m like a bull to a red rag! If someone tells me I can’t do something, I’m off in that direction; it fulfils and excites me”
Pātai 3: What are some of the challenges you’ve faced as a wāhine and as a Māori working in this industry?
Robyn Kamira: I’ve thought about this question a lot but when I think about it, I don’t walk into a room thinking that I’m Māori or a wahine, I just walk in as me but I do have some experiences over the years that have helped to shape me. In form 3, I had a teacher that was a protestor and activist and I didn’t have any whānau or friends in that space and I was so intrigued by her. I realise now that she was my first close-up example of mana wāhine so she was my first role model that set me on this path. She was fearless. In form 5, I had a male Science teacher who refused to teach girls so we were actively excluded from teaching materials and using the bunsen burners. At Polytech, I was the only female in a class, and this teacher also actively excluded me from class, even though I came first in the aptitude test that allowed me entrance. At my first job interview for a tech role, I was asked to “turn around” by an all-male panel. At University, I combined Computer Science with Māori, so it was a double-major but my supervisor, who was a pākehā male, said to me that if I combined Māori and Computer Science that I would be committing professional suicide. So, I left academia and in the early days of running my own Business – Paua Interface – I was told by my Māori clients that I had to bring a male to do the mihi. I was also working on a big contract as a part of the project management team, where the client needed to let go of all the contractors and I was told that I was being let go because I was a single parent and more likely to take time off. However, there’s a good part to this story as one of my male colleagues went to the boss and challenged his prejudices and sexism, so I was reinstated. Those are the kinds of challenges I’ve had to face and work with over the years.
Amber Taylor: This question really got me thinking about some of the challenges that I’ve faced when starting this company and the biggest one I can think of is ego; there’s always been a lot of ego in the room and you’re competing to be heard and this goes right back to my university days. You can be sitting in a room watching everyone compete to be heard or telling everyone how much better and greater they were but I’m really lucky to have had a great boss and he was the one who really lodged me into the commercialisation space. He also taught me how to be heard in these spaces and I learned how to be heard when I needed to be heard. I also found that with Ara Journeys, when I was in a room with Issac,the other Ara Journeys Co-Founder, people would ignore me and direct questions to him. I was fortunate that I had support from male counterparts who were willing to speak up and make sure that my voice was heard and that they’d back me up if I needed it. The biggest challenge for me in this space has been ego and people wanting to speak over you, to be the first. So I’ve learned to sit back and to let it unfold and to speak when I need to say something.
“I was fortunate that I had support from male counterparts who were willing to speak up and make sure that my voice was heard and that they’d back me up if I needed it”
Katie: It’s awesome to see a lot of tāne in the room as well! Maybe they can listen and learn how they can tautoko wāhine and wāhine Māori in being heard in these spaces.
Pātai 4: What advice can you give to other wāhine in the industry, to help them to navigate these kinds of challenges?
Robyn Kamira: This is another challenging question because I think it applies to anyone, wāhine or not and it’s a challenge to ourselves as we can sometimes stereotype ourselves about what we can and can’t do, what we’re good at and what we’re not good at. When I think about the people who have either been directly in my life or those I’ve heard about, who are Māori and what they’ve done, they absolutely don’t fit stereotypical types at all; they’re anomalies. I think first of all, tenacity and risk go together, it’s not for the weak hearted, don’t be a delicate flower. When you start having those ideas that no one else is doing it so I don’t want to or I’m going to be the only Māori female in the room, tell that voice to sit down and shut up because you can and you should. Māori women and Māori in general bring so many different perspectives into a room and another thing to remember is that when you walk into that room, you make a trail for others. You might not realise it but someone is watching you walk into that room and perhaps that’s enough for them to walk in too. So, take the role, embrace it, find your career, find your market or pivot! Sometimes we’re not quite in the right place and over the years, I’ve done so much stuff that’s failed and I’ve been humiliated and I’ve had to lick my wounds and then I’ve gotten up again and thought to myself “people will forget that” and I pivot.I think that’s that’s apart of the mindset in the tech sector anyway but to succeed and be sustained in this sector, you have to have to include all those other pieces as well.
“Māori women bring so many different perspectives into a room”
“Remember that when you walk into that room, you make a trail for others. You might not realise it but someone is watching you walk into that room and perhaps that’s enough for them to walk into the room too.”
“Tenacity and risk go together”
“I’ve done so much stuff that’s failed and I’ve been humiliated and I’ve had to lick my wounds and then I’ve gotten up again and thought to myself “people will forget that” and I pivot.”
Amber Taylor: I’ve been thinking alot about this question and a lot of the different things I’ve done that have enabled me to get to where I am now and one of the biggest things was setting boundaries. As soon as I left the university and went into the company full time, I set some really solid boundaries for myself, including what I’d put up with and what I would put up with, what we’d take on and what we wouldn’t take on, so once those boundaries had been set, it was about being comfortable saying no. A lot of the time, with the mahi we do, we were approached by companies that wanted us to build content and platforms that had no real meaning but that deviated from the mission we were on with Ara Journeys, so we were turning down contracts that didn’t align with our company and our mission, which sounds crazy because most companies need money and revenue to grow but that wasn’t the be all and end all for us. Being clear about those boundaries upfront meant I was comfortable saying no. It was also important for us to be a ‘lean team’ and ensure we weren’t being overworked as burnout is common in the tech industry. Another thing, something that follows on from that, is being wāhine Māori, we tend to take on a lot of responsibilities at home and things we need to be actively involved in, so that’s something I’m very conscious of now and I carve out time for myself and I encourage my staff to do the same. I’m not just work, work and more work because even though you can feel like that’s what you need to be doing, it’s not healthy so I believe in ensuring you make time for yourself because you need it to grow.
“I set some really solid boundaries for myself, including what I’d put up with and what I would put up with, what we’d take on and what we wouldn’t take on, so once those boundaries had been set, it was about being comfortable saying no”
“Wāhine Māori tend to take on a lot of responsibilities at home, things we need to be actively involved in, so I make sure I carve out time for myself and I encourage my staff to do the same.”
Pātai 5: What difference do you bring to the sector, as wāhine Māori, as wāhine, as Māori?
Robyn Kamira: If I think about the projects I work on, I’m also really fussy about who my clients are and I too have turned down many contracts if I felt our integrity or our values weren’t aligned. Usually, that means the difference I can bring is something the client appreciates because our values align. With Māori clients, I think the difference is seriously unpacking tech, using the right language, challenging the IT vendors who are swarming around them for their pūtea, and being their advocate and being on their team. For non-Māori clients and particularly in the government sector, I’d say it’s being that same advocate and bringing those uncomfortable messages through to clients to make sure they’re getting the frank and blunt truth because we can;t solve problems if we’re being quiet and they don;t know they exist. So, the assumption is that if I’m being truthful, you will help us to help find a solution and to do something meaningful. I think that comes from the idea of mana wāhine and mana tāne, setting a responsibility that you are not there to be a delicate wallflower but you are there to have a strong and clear voice on behalf of the communities that you care about. I think that’s something different and I don’t often see it in my sector. Often, IT professionals are there until the job’s over but we’re in it for life, we’re inter-generationally-focused.
“We’re in it for life, we’re inter-generationally-focused.”
“You are there to have a strong and clear voice on behalf of the communities that you care about.”
Amber Taylor: Being Māori, we think wider than ourselves. It’s not just Ara Journeys but other Māori companies I know, we don’t just think about what we’re creating here and now but we’re thinking about what we’re creating for the future as everything is interconnected; people, place and planet are all connected for us and that’s what’s most important. It’s not just about creating the latest technology, innovation, a new game or new platform to hit the market but we’re thinking about the consequences that those developments have on our communities and our people and I think that’s the difference we bring, as Māori, to the table.
“Being Māori, we think wider than ourselves. We don’t just think about what we’re creating here and now but we’re thinking about what we’re creating for the future”
“It’s not just about creating the latest technology, innovation, a new game or new platform to hit the market but we’re thinking about the consequences that those developments have on our communities and our people”
Pātai #5 from member: What advice would you give to young Maori wāhine (my tamariki) in pursuing a career in tech?
Robyn Kamira: Some people won’t like this but spend less money on clothes, makeup and handbags and more money on your learning because you’ll always be rewarded for it.
Amber Taylor: Tech is so broad and so wide ranging and if I look at the capability that makes up our own team, there’s six different jobs in our team alone and all different aspects of tech that can also go into other sectors. So I think for any young wāhine looking to get into the tech industry, really explore your options and explore while you’re still at school, look at all the resources the community have, and have a tutu!
Pātai #5: What is the one piece of mahi throughout your career that you’re most proud of?
Amber Taylor: The one piece of mahi I’m most proud of, you wouldn’t have heard of yet, because we’re only just soft-launched but it’s a program called Aravengers and it’s what we’ve built on top of our school program where we’ve identified rangatahi from Papakura High School who are shining stars and natural talents in the animation and digital art space, so we’ve brought them into the company as interns on scholarships to work with them throughout the year. This is our first pilot for the first half of the year but we are looking at building onto the program in the second half and bringing more rangatahi on through that same system. We want to give them hands-on industry experience that they can do while they’re at school and to get paid for it!
Robyn Kamira: I’ve decided to slightly change your question to “what mahi have I done that has been the most fun?” and that was a project that was life changing for some of the people involved and that was the cadetship program for certified drone pilots. I watched 10 people, some of whom already have small drone companies but mostly in photography, but some of them had never even seen a drone and over half of them had never flown a drone. So I watched them pull them apart, look at all the bits, put them back together, fly them in a contained space thanks to Callaghan Innovation, and watching and listening to the laughter, the power of learning was priceless. Many of the attendees continue to fly drones for the organisations they’ve applied to work in, some for hapū, Iwi and Marae Trusts but I will never forget the hilarity and laughter.
Patai #6: How do you protect your māoritanga when working in non-māori spaces or being the only māori in your space?
Amber Taylor
In the first instance, like we mentioned earlier, we’re really picky about who we work with. So, when we’re put into those situations, we think about what we share and what we don;t share, what we put onto the table and what we choose to withhold. It’s a two-way thing, so we have to trust that the people that we’re working with are going to do the right thing. It’s a tough question and it’s case-by-case.
Robyn Kamira: I tautoko Amber as I also do the same. I let information out or I pull it back depending on who’s in the room. It’s not my job to change a racist or a sexist, or to teach people about equity or diversity or any of those things but if those people are bringing value back, I may spend some time on it. I’m always conscious about the boundaries and more so today than I was previously. As I mentioned earlier, I will walk out of a contract if it challenges my cultural integrity. In terms of my Māoritanga, I’m used to going into spaces where there are people who, culturally, have a different world view. So, I don’t expect people to shift to me because it won’t happen but I make a choice that I want to be in this room and I want to make a difference, so my biggest protector is myself. Part of it is understanding what that means, what’s happening in your head and being your own bouncer at the door.
“I’m used to going into spaces where there are people who, culturally, have a different world view. So, I don’t expect people to shift to me because it won’t happen but I make a choice that I want to be in this room and I want to make a difference”
Patai #6: How do you feel about the increasing digital flow of mātauranga and whakapapa online? I’m fascinated with some of the pūrakau that pop up online but they are ‘under’ social media platforms so I wonder how that IP and information sits in regard to ownership and use, especially with AI growing…
Robyn Kamira: I think the reality is that the horse has bolted. We are responsible, to a degree, because we share so much. We even send our DNA overseas to a company to find out who we’re related to. We’ve done this over a couple of decades. I think in terms of IP and ownership and those things we used to talk about surrounding some knowledge being tapu, we’ve already breached it ourselves, let alone others breaching it. I think a part of the mitigation of that is understanding that anything we see online is not necessarily truth. If we’re looking for knowledge, we need to do the work and triangulate and if we share something, we need to feel very comfortable about how we’ve shared it. I think the same thing about climate change and that we can focus on mitigation but It’s here, so we need to start thinking about how we build resilience, how do we protect, how do we strengthen? We need to shift our thinking and take responsibility.
Amber Taylor: I really love being able to learn a bit about whakapapa, mātauranga, te taiao and the atua. I grew up somewhat disconnected from my Mārae and it wasn’t until I started Ara and got involved in learning about the history of places and especially within my own area, where I’m living in Auckland, that those online resources became really important to me but the flipside of that is how is that content being generated or coming to fruition online and that’s the other lessons we learned through our mahi online. A lot of the stories you see online I grew up in Otara and went to primary school there and they taught us Samoan stories opposed to our own Māori stories.
So I grew up in South Auckland not knowing any of the whakapapa of this area, so I started Ara Journeys. So that online content was really important to me in that space and that journey that I was on at the time. But the flipside is how is that content being generated, and that’s the other lesson we learnt with the mahi we do at Ara, is a lot of the content and the stories that are posted online have not always had the blessing of iwi or mana whenua who are the rightful owners of that kōrero. They haven’t done the due diligence to know who has the mana of that mātauranga.
With regards to IP and ownership, if you’re a creator and the one who has been given this content to put online then that is your priority to safeguard that knowledge online. That’s how we operate and it’s how we hope others operate.
